The Epic, Pt. 33

Given Elder Ramirez’s repeated assertions that he did not see a need for the Group to have three representatives it was decided that we needed to elaborate on our concerns about sending only one.

Aug. 24, 2008, 7:32pm: “You may not feel the need for more than two people to be present at every meeting or have the meeting recorded. We do, and this comes from repeated willful misrepresentations to and about us as well as being denied due process by church administration, particularly the TP pastoral staff. You and I have never met. I don't know you, and I'm not saying that you personally had anything to do with the aforementioned miss-treatment, but since you come to us as a representative of the conference you should be sympathetic to our insistence simply as a matter of self-preservation.

“Allow me to give you a prime example of this duplicity. You have stated, as has Elder Miller, that we have not followed Matt. 18 and that the "process" which must be worked out is how to follow its principles. Since neither you nor he have been personally attending TP, or our church's administrative meetings, or heard any of the personal conversations between members of our group and the pastoral staff, you have no personal knowledge of whether or not we have followed Matt. 18 by presenting our concerns first to the pastoral staff. The only possible basis you might have for such a statement is that you have been told. In fact, we have more than followed Matt. 18. Attached is a chart which chronicles just a few of our efforts to follow Matt. 18. I say "a few" because a number of other members of our group have also made attempts to reason with the pastors, but they didn't get me their dates of such visits soon enough to be included in the chart. Even with only this partial list, you can clearly see that we have bent over backwards to follow Matthew's principles. The pastors, if they were being honest, would have to admit this fact, and yet they haven't. The bottom line is that the only part of Matt. 18 which has not been followed is the, "but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

“Beyond the process of Matt. 18 Elder Miller stated in his letters that we should first seek a meeting with conference administration (which we have already done, as we pointed out to Elder Miller in our last letter) and then, if we were not satisfied with the results, we could appear before the conference executive committee (which we formally requested to do at the close of the aforementioned letter). To our minds, the only "process" which remains is for the conference to grant the request that we be allowed to present our case to the full Conference Committee. We agreed to have a process meeting with you to point out these facts and finalize the time of our appearance before the committee.

“Unless you have something to hide, you have nothing to lose from a meeting with the three of us who have been appointed to represent the group. The suggestion of recording the meeting about process is a distinctly inferior option, made only as a compromise attempt because of your unwillingness to have our full spokesgroup in the room. If you are unwilling to meet with us under what we consider to be extremely reasonable conditions, we will conclude that the conference is not going to allow the three representatives to appear before the executive committee as promised. In that case, we will have to pursue alternate venues for making our appeal.

“The course of these negotiations is extremely disappointing to us. As I have already pointed out, every consideration of due process required of us by the Bible and Elder Miller we have faithfully performed. That we are now being told that we have been deficient and even more "process" is required, combined with your determined resistance to meeting with the three of us, seems to us to be a changing of the ground rules as stalling tactic in the hopes that we will get tired and give up. This only contributes to our impression that our church leadership is untrustworthy. We are trying very hard to be flexible and accommodating. We are willing to have an in-person meeting with you about "process" whether or not we see a purpose for such a meeting. Meet us half way and prove that our fears about church leadership are unfounded by accepting that there will be three of us in the room.”

The partial list of Matthew 18 visits referred to in the message is included below.

1. Matt. 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Sept. 8, 2007 - Brother H
Oct. 15, 2007 - Brother H
Nov. (7 or 14), 2007 - Brother G
Nov. 19, 2007 - Brother H
Dec. 10, 2007 - Elder B
Jan. 7, 2008 - Elder B
April 14, 2008 - Elder B (phone call)
April 14, 2008 - Elder B (letter)

2. Matt. 18:16 - But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Oct. 27, 2007 - Brother H and Brother R
Dec. 31, 2007 and Jan. 6, 2008 - Elders' Meetings
April 23, 2008 - Elders' and Acountability Boards Meeting

3. Matt. 18:17 - And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

April 24, 2008 - letter to congregation signed by nine concerned church leaders and members

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