There are a few things that are discussed in the comments to this blog that raise HUGE points. In the interest of everyone reading, quite a few people in fact, judging by the blog census, there are a few comments I would like to address directly.
Let's start with the post of September 15, 2009. Before going any further, please go back and re-read the posting, specifically, the letter sent by Potomac Conference President, William Miller. In response to that post, we received this:
Anonymous said...
How you feel the letter was dismissive is beyond me. It does, however, prove what I have always known. We see what we want to see. That being, if you want to be offended, you surely will be. As you clearly are. And believe it or not, your real character came out with your response to Bill Miller in the parentheses. It is clear it's all about you, and your desire to control the church. What you have claimed your pastor is doing is in fact what you are doing. And along the way you will destroy anyone, or any process that gets in the way.I would second what the Conference president stated, that being if this process and discussion is fruitful to bring people to Christ, it's the right motive. I cannot judge, but from what I have seen in these writings, your motives have nothing to do with winning people to Jesus, only gaining a victory that satisfies your agenda.I wonder if you will delete this comment, as you most likely delete all comments that are not "for" you.
In a word, whoa. Both the post, and the response, miss out on a few very important points. So, I'd like to take a moment and fill in a few gaps. Well, okay, several gaps. :)
This blog has never been about "traditionalism," over the "contemporary." This had never been about control of this or any other church. Neither this blog, nor the struggle against a system of church government that is neither Adventist, nor Protestant, was designed to be personal. This isn't about ad hominem attacks. This certainly isn't about destruction. These sad allegations are distractions. This blog is about putting the facts forward.
For me facts, like honesty, are important. Indeed, facts aren't just important, facts are essential when one is trying to make a decision. Unlike any of the other writers, or responders to this blog, I was a member of the Takoma Park Church Board when the vote was taken to bring in a consultant. Had I know the fact that the consultant would have advocated a course of action that was detrimental to my church family, as well as other SDA churches from the USA to New Zealand, I would never have voted in support of bringing in a consultant. Indeed had we known the fact that SDA churches have suffered most grievously for abandoning an SDA form of democratic church government, in a sorry exchange for an "Accountability Board" and a "Ministry Board," none of us would have voted in favor this.
I started this blog with the simple idea of putting the facts out there. Let no church, nor any individual, suffer for want of truth.
Now with that said, let's look at Elder Miller's letter of June 17, 2008. The immediate thought that crossed my mind when I first read the letter was, "How bizarre?" This wasn't then, not is it now, an attack on Elder Miller; I'm just saying...
First, Elder Miller responded to a phone call for a meeting by personally attending it himself, along with Dr. Ray Pichette, and local (Takoma Park Church) elders and officers, held at a Potomac Conference property in Silver Spring. The meeting and the use of the property was scheduled, if not by Elder Miller ditrectly, then by his staff. How in the world was that an unofficial meeting? I could see it, maybe, if all these people just happened to bump into each other, coming from locations as different and diverse as Staunton, VA, to Hillandale, MD, to Haggertown, MD, by random chance of course, at the Home Depot on 410, in the middle of the Winter, on a weekday evening, and just started talking. I could see where that might have been called an "unofficial meeting."
Having been there at that meeting though, I can tell you that there was nothing random about it. It was planned. And by my way of thinking, if a meeting of that type was planned and scheduled, it was official.
However, if the Potomac Conference President wants to call it an "unofficial meeting." who am I to say otherwise? But here's what I don't get. Does the Potomac Conference President, or any clergy for that matter have a perceived "God-given right" to determine the definition of "is?" Because if that's the case, we have a whole different problem afoot.
Next, please turn in you Bible to Mathew 18. Whatever version you want. Now, please parse through it. I own a Bible entitled, "The Word: The Bible from 26 Translations." I used this "Worthy Tool" to parse through that chapter. As I read it, Matthew 18 speaks to important issues such as who will be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, how wrong it is to cause others to stumble in their Christian walk, that Jesus came to save those that are lost, what to do if your brother/sister in Christ wrongs you, an admonition to forgive, one of the more famous Biblical promises, and, arguably, the most famous Biblical parable. I see nothing, whatsoever, at all that talks to restoring an SDA church who's clerical leadership has taken it astray.
Elder Miller says it does. I don't see it. Maybe if I read Hebrew, or Greek, or Aramaic, I could understand Matthew 18 better. Maybe, in his view, we are wrong for wanting an Adventist Church to be an Adventist Church. Perhaps, he thinks that because we are struggling to restore our Church, we have somehow become "lost." If that's the case, then I can see how Matthew 18 applies. If yes, then I take comfort in the promise of Matthew 18 that Jesus will come in search of us and find us. However, if struggling to return our Church to a right path makes us "lost," I'd be more than a bit concerned if I were the one or ones that caused us to be lost...
Now let's look at "Anonymous's" response.
At the beginning of this blog there was an open invitation for everyone and anyone to post their thoughts about the stealth program to change the SDA Church government. I say stealth, because if various pastors, conference presidents, and other high Church officials want the same system used by Ric Warren, Robert Schuller, T.D. Jakes, etc., use instead of what Ellen G. White said came from God, then fine. But do it the right way and go before the General Conference in Open Session and present your plan. For me this was always the issue. If you are going to do something, anything, you do it the right way.
I've studied the "Church Growth Movement" in great detail, along with it's various incarnations, i.e., The Saddleback Church, The Purpose Driven Church, The Healthy Church Initiative, Team One, etc. Further, because of my academic work, I've had to study Group Dynamics, Organizational Behaviour, and Transformational Leadership. I've also read the Bible. You don't need to change your Church organizational structure in order to win souls for Christ. You don't. You simply don't. Take a look at the local Hispanic Churches, or the Ethiopian Church that meets in the basement of the Takoma Park. They adhere to the Church Manual. The have legitimate Church Boards. These Churches are growing. This is in stark contrast to the main body of Takoma Park Church which is losing people. In mathematics, that's called an "Inverse Relationship."
I wonder what Elder Miller would call it?
Anyway, Anonymous, here's my question. You suggest that your concern is bringing people to Jesus. Mine, too. So, I'd like you to show me one person, at one SDA church in Maryland, Virginia, Minnesota, Washington State, Washington, DC, Colorado, or anywhere else, that came into this faith as a result of the Healthy Church Initiative. Just one.
See, I believe that sharing what we know about God, about Jesus, facts from the Bible, and the soon return of Jesus is vitally important. But if we invite people to know Jesus and then be part of the SDA Church, I want people to come to an honest Church, with all the facts on the table. Nothing more, but by the Grace of God, nothing less.
Last, in you message, Anonymous, you make a lot of personal attacks. It's as though someone has offended you personally. Perhaps you feel as though you have a legitmate Matthew 18 grievance. Very well. I started this blog. If you feel you been wronged, tell me. Tell me how you feel you've been wronged, and why. If you can tell us specifically how you are wronged, I will apologize and make amends.
Let's start with the post of September 15, 2009. Before going any further, please go back and re-read the posting, specifically, the letter sent by Potomac Conference President, William Miller. In response to that post, we received this:
Anonymous said...
How you feel the letter was dismissive is beyond me. It does, however, prove what I have always known. We see what we want to see. That being, if you want to be offended, you surely will be. As you clearly are. And believe it or not, your real character came out with your response to Bill Miller in the parentheses. It is clear it's all about you, and your desire to control the church. What you have claimed your pastor is doing is in fact what you are doing. And along the way you will destroy anyone, or any process that gets in the way.I would second what the Conference president stated, that being if this process and discussion is fruitful to bring people to Christ, it's the right motive. I cannot judge, but from what I have seen in these writings, your motives have nothing to do with winning people to Jesus, only gaining a victory that satisfies your agenda.I wonder if you will delete this comment, as you most likely delete all comments that are not "for" you.
In a word, whoa. Both the post, and the response, miss out on a few very important points. So, I'd like to take a moment and fill in a few gaps. Well, okay, several gaps. :)
This blog has never been about "traditionalism," over the "contemporary." This had never been about control of this or any other church. Neither this blog, nor the struggle against a system of church government that is neither Adventist, nor Protestant, was designed to be personal. This isn't about ad hominem attacks. This certainly isn't about destruction. These sad allegations are distractions. This blog is about putting the facts forward.
For me facts, like honesty, are important. Indeed, facts aren't just important, facts are essential when one is trying to make a decision. Unlike any of the other writers, or responders to this blog, I was a member of the Takoma Park Church Board when the vote was taken to bring in a consultant. Had I know the fact that the consultant would have advocated a course of action that was detrimental to my church family, as well as other SDA churches from the USA to New Zealand, I would never have voted in support of bringing in a consultant. Indeed had we known the fact that SDA churches have suffered most grievously for abandoning an SDA form of democratic church government, in a sorry exchange for an "Accountability Board" and a "Ministry Board," none of us would have voted in favor this.
I started this blog with the simple idea of putting the facts out there. Let no church, nor any individual, suffer for want of truth.
Now with that said, let's look at Elder Miller's letter of June 17, 2008. The immediate thought that crossed my mind when I first read the letter was, "How bizarre?" This wasn't then, not is it now, an attack on Elder Miller; I'm just saying...
First, Elder Miller responded to a phone call for a meeting by personally attending it himself, along with Dr. Ray Pichette, and local (Takoma Park Church) elders and officers, held at a Potomac Conference property in Silver Spring. The meeting and the use of the property was scheduled, if not by Elder Miller ditrectly, then by his staff. How in the world was that an unofficial meeting? I could see it, maybe, if all these people just happened to bump into each other, coming from locations as different and diverse as Staunton, VA, to Hillandale, MD, to Haggertown, MD, by random chance of course, at the Home Depot on 410, in the middle of the Winter, on a weekday evening, and just started talking. I could see where that might have been called an "unofficial meeting."
Having been there at that meeting though, I can tell you that there was nothing random about it. It was planned. And by my way of thinking, if a meeting of that type was planned and scheduled, it was official.
However, if the Potomac Conference President wants to call it an "unofficial meeting." who am I to say otherwise? But here's what I don't get. Does the Potomac Conference President, or any clergy for that matter have a perceived "God-given right" to determine the definition of "is?" Because if that's the case, we have a whole different problem afoot.
Next, please turn in you Bible to Mathew 18. Whatever version you want. Now, please parse through it. I own a Bible entitled, "The Word: The Bible from 26 Translations." I used this "Worthy Tool" to parse through that chapter. As I read it, Matthew 18 speaks to important issues such as who will be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, how wrong it is to cause others to stumble in their Christian walk, that Jesus came to save those that are lost, what to do if your brother/sister in Christ wrongs you, an admonition to forgive, one of the more famous Biblical promises, and, arguably, the most famous Biblical parable. I see nothing, whatsoever, at all that talks to restoring an SDA church who's clerical leadership has taken it astray.
Elder Miller says it does. I don't see it. Maybe if I read Hebrew, or Greek, or Aramaic, I could understand Matthew 18 better. Maybe, in his view, we are wrong for wanting an Adventist Church to be an Adventist Church. Perhaps, he thinks that because we are struggling to restore our Church, we have somehow become "lost." If that's the case, then I can see how Matthew 18 applies. If yes, then I take comfort in the promise of Matthew 18 that Jesus will come in search of us and find us. However, if struggling to return our Church to a right path makes us "lost," I'd be more than a bit concerned if I were the one or ones that caused us to be lost...
Now let's look at "Anonymous's" response.
At the beginning of this blog there was an open invitation for everyone and anyone to post their thoughts about the stealth program to change the SDA Church government. I say stealth, because if various pastors, conference presidents, and other high Church officials want the same system used by Ric Warren, Robert Schuller, T.D. Jakes, etc., use instead of what Ellen G. White said came from God, then fine. But do it the right way and go before the General Conference in Open Session and present your plan. For me this was always the issue. If you are going to do something, anything, you do it the right way.
I've studied the "Church Growth Movement" in great detail, along with it's various incarnations, i.e., The Saddleback Church, The Purpose Driven Church, The Healthy Church Initiative, Team One, etc. Further, because of my academic work, I've had to study Group Dynamics, Organizational Behaviour, and Transformational Leadership. I've also read the Bible. You don't need to change your Church organizational structure in order to win souls for Christ. You don't. You simply don't. Take a look at the local Hispanic Churches, or the Ethiopian Church that meets in the basement of the Takoma Park. They adhere to the Church Manual. The have legitimate Church Boards. These Churches are growing. This is in stark contrast to the main body of Takoma Park Church which is losing people. In mathematics, that's called an "Inverse Relationship."
I wonder what Elder Miller would call it?
Anyway, Anonymous, here's my question. You suggest that your concern is bringing people to Jesus. Mine, too. So, I'd like you to show me one person, at one SDA church in Maryland, Virginia, Minnesota, Washington State, Washington, DC, Colorado, or anywhere else, that came into this faith as a result of the Healthy Church Initiative. Just one.
See, I believe that sharing what we know about God, about Jesus, facts from the Bible, and the soon return of Jesus is vitally important. But if we invite people to know Jesus and then be part of the SDA Church, I want people to come to an honest Church, with all the facts on the table. Nothing more, but by the Grace of God, nothing less.
Last, in you message, Anonymous, you make a lot of personal attacks. It's as though someone has offended you personally. Perhaps you feel as though you have a legitmate Matthew 18 grievance. Very well. I started this blog. If you feel you been wronged, tell me. Tell me how you feel you've been wronged, and why. If you can tell us specifically how you are wronged, I will apologize and make amends.
4 comments:
We have several people in our church who have been studying the bible for a couple of years but refused to join our church because of the Team One structure. They believe everything about the Seventh Day Adventist church but do not want to baptize in our church. So, they study the Bible with us but goes to another SDA church for service.
I want to register my agreement that this blog is disclosing an important issue in the Adventist Church. We began through God-inspired messengers such as Ellen White, William Miller, Joseph Bates, and others and the church structure was inspired by God.
If we are to change our structure then it needs to be through the Church in General Session. We should not have various conferences and unions deciding to "try" different structures. If you are a part of an organization you follow the rules of the organization or you leave it.
I do not want our Adventist churches to covet the structure or the results of Willow Creek or of any other church. We are unique.
If we truly believe in the Adventist Message and that God has led us to this point, why would we be looking elsewhere for direction? I pray daily for God to protect his faithful followers from outside influences that are not God-ordained.
This trial upon the church, will surely test us all.
We must not be afraid to stand firm as Seventh-Day Adventists, under the structure given us by God. It is our privilege.
I pray we do not let Christ down.
Amen to Kathy's statement.
God Keep Us Strong,
Deborah
I have not taken offense to any one thing, only pointed out that in creating a blog, where you feel it is important to expose every letter written and meeting held between Takoma Park and the Conference to anyone who stops by to read about it, is in many ways less Christ-like than the things you are accusing the Potomac Conference, and leadership of Takoma Park Church of doing. I suggest if you were serious about your desire to approach in a Matthew 18 way, you would immediately shut down the blog, drop on your knees and ask God for a humble heart and the best, most effective way to handle what you perceive is a problem. That would be Christ's way of doing it. You may have have good intentions, but even Satan thought he was doing what was right when he deceived one third of the angels in heaven.
I am fully aware of the entire situation at Takoma Park, and other churches in the Potomac Conference. Stephen Covey suggests that we seek first to understand before we try to be understood. Have you tried this approach? Have you looked for the best in the situation instead of the worst? Have you tried to see what the desired outcome of the changes is for TP? Perhaps you could agree with the outcome and then work TOGETHER on the process that achieves the desired outcome.
I think what has happened here, and is clearly evident in your writing, is that you have ceased to find the common ground and are now wanting the higher ground at whatever expense of others is needed. I think this is evident in that you feel it is important to share letters and other insights to others so you can beat up the person who wrote the letters. Is this Christ's way to get a win-win for everyone? I suspect if you stood back and thought and prayed on it you would find out it isn't.
Let me be clear. I harbor no ill-will or grudges against you for your blog. I only wish for all our churches in the world to be focused on God, focused on humanity, and seeking to reconcile the two together quickly so we can spend eternity with all. Trying to work together is better than battling apart. I feel this blog is a very abrupt way of sharing YOUR view, not the whole view. For it has been said, and proven often, there is your version of the truth, their version of the truth, and the cold hard truth in the middle. I suspect it holds true in this case as well, and I hope you will rethink where the truth is in this case.
One danger in all of this, and in fact I suspect it gets worse with each post of the "epic", is that you begin to believe what you are claiming is the best, most accurate version of the truth. Satan did the same thing, in that at first he knew better with his charge against God, but the more he expounded his belief to the other angels, the more he became to believe his version was THE truth. He was willing to go to war for his version of the truth about God and he lost his place in heaven because of it.
The answer to knowing whether or not you have begun to harden your heart to reconciling truth and relationships with those you are writing against is your willingness to love them in spite of where you believe they are wrong. Would you wash their feet? Would you pray with and for them? Would you be willing to admit where you are wrong if they came to you to admit they were wrong? Would you humbly sit down and seek to reach the common ground that "wins a brother" (Matthew 18) or do you desire a win that satisfies your view, even at the expense of someone else experiencing a loss...
I have been an Adventist for 38 years and I love my church and the people in it. Do we have challenges? Yes. Do we need to adjust? Yes. Can we do it together? We have to. May it be the case in your church that it is done in love, and a non-confrontational manner, so that others, who are observing this "fight" and sharpening their swords, will humble themselves as well as you have done, sheathed their swords and dropped to their knees as we all seek common ground to serve and honor our God.
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